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The Boy Scouts of America is considering an end to its longstanding policy of banning gay Scouts and Scout leaders, the organization said on Monday.

The new policy would eliminate the ban on gays from the organization's national rules, allowing local chapters to decide for themselves.

“The BSA is discussing potentially removing the national membership restriction regarding sexual orientation," Deron Smith, a spokesman for the Boy Scouts of America, wrote in an email to Yahoo News. "This would mean there would no longer be any national policy regarding sexual orientation, but that the chartered organizations that oversee and deliver Scouting would accept membership and select leaders consistent with their organization’s mission, principles or religious beliefs."

The 102-year-old Dallas-based organization represents 290 local councils, more than 116,000 local organizations and 2.6 million youth members.

The move would allow parents to then "choose a local unit which best meets the needs of their families,” Smith added. “The policy change under discussion would allow the religious, civic or educational organizations that oversee and deliver Scouting to determine how to address this issue. The Boy Scouts would not, under any circumstances, dictate a position to units, members or parents."

It would also be a public reversal of policy for an organization that recently rejected calls for change. In July 2012, following an internal study on the issue, the Boy Scouts of America's executive board issued a statement affirming the ban, saying it was “the best policy for the organization.”

That decision followed the forced resignations of gay Scout leaders and the denial of an Eagle Award to Ryan Andresen, a California high-school senior who had recently come out to his friends and family.

The ban prompted a response from the White House, which said President Barack Obama sharply opposed it. “He also opposes discrimination in all forms,” the White House said in a statement, "and as such opposes this policy that discriminates on basis of sexual orientation."

According to NBC, some board members urged the youth organization to reconsider its policy as some sponsoring organizations responded by withdrawing their financial support of the group.

Change.org petitions opposing the ban have collected more than 1.2 million signatures. And according to Scouts for Equality, at least 350 Eagle Scouts returned their pins in protest.

Well, as a former scout, I am glad to hear of this change. Granted, when I was in scouting I was much much younger, but I recall that it had nothing to do with sexuality and everything to do with forming a bond between people, instilling morals and discipline, and teaching valuable skills to a younger generation. Some of my best memories growing up involve the cub/boy scouts. To have them openly discriminate against people like that never set well with me. So as I said, glad they're changing their mind about it.

B4UTRUST wrote:Well, as a former scout, I am glad to hear of this change. Granted, when I was in scouting I was much much younger, but I recall that it had nothing to do with sexuality and everything to do with forming a bond between people, instilling morals and discipline, and teaching valuable skills to a younger generation.

We smuggled liquor from Mexico and got roaring drunk while smoking and reading girlie mags that our patrol leader had swiped from his father.

When our troop was shut down for financial insolvency we got folded into another troop and most of us quit because they actually enforced the Totin' Chip regulations with regards to edged implements so we couldn't all carry machetes and hatchets like we were some sort of prepubescent pirate band.

I was in the Boy Scouts for a while growing up. I approve of the Boy Scouts working on being less bigoted.

The principles and beliefs behind the Boy Scouts I like and appreciate, but half the time it appears to be used by the adults to push their ideologies. I know the first time I heard about "pyramid power" and the "illuminati" was from some kid's dad while I was in the Scouts.

I firmly believe that gay kids should also have the great opportunity to be bored to tears by obsessive parents on camping trips.

I see. The 'I had to live through it, so by Valen, everybody else does too' approach.
And while at least as per rhoenix a case could be made that gays are spared hardship by being banned from the Boy Scouts, somebody apparently decided that if gays are stupid enough to want to get shot at for a rather ascetinc living defending the interests of a country that largely hates them and will try to cheat them out of their medical benefits if they get wounded regardless of their sexual orientation willing to serve in the armed forces, they should be allowed to do so. If the US can do this, surely allowing gays to suffer through Boy Scout camping trips if they wish to is doable too.

(no personal opinion on the Boy Scouts, never was one, I'm not even sure we have something like that in Germany)

Batman wrote:I see. The 'I had to live through it, so by Valen, everybody else does too' approach.
And while at least as per rhoenix a case could be made that gays are spared hardship by being banned from the Boy Scouts, somebody apparently decided that if gays are stupid enough to want to get shot at for a rather ascetinc living defending the interests of a country that largely hates them and will try to cheat them out of their medical benefits if they get wounded regardless of their sexual orientation willing to serve in the armed forces, they should be allowed to do so. If the US can do this, surely allowing gays to suffer through Boy Scout camping trips if they wish to is doable too.

(no personal opinion on the Boy Scouts, never was one, I'm not even sure we have something like that in Germany)

I believe the Marxists would call the above "becoming involved in a contradiction".

And as to your question, the Boy Scouts got run out of Germany quite a while ago in favor of other groups you would no doubt find more commodious for instilling proper German values.

Batman wrote:I see. The 'I had to live through it, so by Valen, everybody else does too' approach.
And while at least as per rhoenix a case could be made that gays are spared hardship by being banned from the Boy Scouts, somebody apparently decided that if gays are stupid enough to want to get shot at for a rather ascetinc living defending the interests of a country that largely hates them and will try to cheat them out of their medical benefits if they get wounded regardless of their sexual orientation willing to serve in the armed forces, they should be allowed to do so. If the US can do this, surely allowing gays to suffer through Boy Scout camping trips if they wish to is doable too.

(no personal opinion on the Boy Scouts, never was one, I'm not even sure we have something like that in Germany)

You know Bats, you're right. Boy, those gays in the US are sure stupid, fighting for their civil rights. They should just move to a country where they already exist. Why should anyone work to improve the state of their own nation when they could simply spend massive amounts of resources, years of their lives, and contact with everyone they know and love to just move somewhere else, where instead of being discriminated against for their sexuality, they'll be discriminated against for being foreigners, and then also possibly for their sexuality, because even when laws provide protections, they don't instantly change public opinions.

You don't make your life better by running away from problems and conflicts. You make it better by meeting them head on and doing something about them. Running or staying silent only lets the people who are currently making your life miserable think that what they are doing is not only right, but acceptable. And staying silent when you see others being discriminated against only helps them think that.

But please, continue with the noodle-sharp observations of social movements you clearly know so much about.

I wasn't aware there was currently such a thing as official proper german values and given what happened the last few times they were when did I say I thought that was a good thing?

I also have no fucking clue what Hotfoot is complaining about.

Bats, it's because you acted like the stereotypical American, and posited an opinion on something you admittedly don't know anything about.

I had to re-read your post three times before I got your intent of just sarcastic support for the idea, instead of poking fun at the struggle of gay/women/black sorts when it comes to the U.S. Military.

In short, the Boy Scouts is an organized camping and outdoors program. It does help boys to learn self-reliance, survival, and the mindset of problem-solving.

Bats, you just in the quoted post called Gays stupid for serving in the military in an effort to gain civil rights. Do you not see how that's offensive, short-sighted, and counter to the very way civil rights are done in the first place? Should have Winfried Stetcher have just shrugged his shoulders, given up, and moved to Canada after he was demoted for being gay? Do you understand the fundamental issue here at all?

No, of course you don't. You're too damn busy pretending to be a fictional character. Why don't you go back to you basement and let the grownups talk, okay? If you're real quiet, you'll get ice cream later.

I thought the underlying idea of 'gays are allowed to get shot at for a living if they choose to so why not let them live through Boy Scout training if they choose to' was pretty obvious. I was apparently mistaken.

You are mistaken about a great many things. Take that to heart before next you weigh in on something.

By the way, the Boy Scouts, as well as several other scouting organizations, do currently exist in Germany, some of which are known as Pathfinders.

Hotfoot wrote:Bats, you just in the quoted post called Gays stupid for serving in the military in an effort to gain civil rights. Do you not see how that's offensive, short-sighted, and counter to the very way civil rights are done in the first place?

We may have to establish a common definition of 'stupid' here. Yeah, in a society were that is going to happen sometime before we develop FTL, abso-fucking-lutely. My point is them doing so isn't making much in the way of a difference, and no country is worth dying for kust because it's yours (mine included, not that I've ever been particularly patriotic anyway).

Should have Winfried Stetcher have just shrugged his shoulders, given up, and moved to Canada after he was demoted for being gay? Do you understand the fundamental issue here at all?

Unlike you, yes I do. Gays are denied rights. We already knew that. And I'm reasonably certain I never said there was anything wrong with gays fighting for those rights. ALL I said was that them doing so by dieng in a completely pointless and unwinnable war was a suboptimal way to do it.
Oh and I never said gays were stupid for serving in the military in an effort to gain civil rights. I said them serving in the military was stupid period. Because, you see, getting shot at for a pittance only to be cheated out of your pension on a technicality is.

I sincerely hope, Batman, that you never have occasion to learn how stupid you actually are.

And for the sake of honesty, Batman, that's not what you said before, not even close. It's stupid in its own right, but it's not what you said. You said that Gays were stupid for joining the military of a nation that hates them. Not that 'it's dumb to join an army'. If you think those two things are equivalent then you are an idiot, and if you do not, then you are a liar. I don't personally care which one is the case.

Oh and incidentally, you know nothing about the US military or why anyone joins it or does not, nor about the United States in general, its culture, flaws and foibles. Your statements on these subjects have made that adequately clear. And I'm gonna caution you about engaging in national stereotyping to make a cheap political point. Because you guys sure as hell aren't gonna come out the rosiest in that little discussion.

Ah, yes. The rubber and glue argument, very effective. As for stupid, I'll agree that you fit the definition nicely. You are not only ignorant of nearly every subject you speak on, but are actively unwilling to go and do even basic legwork to determine if something you say is true or not. You, in fact, resist any and all efforts to learn, and then have the unmitigated gall to insult people engaged in a struggle you don't understand for doing something you deem sub-optimal with no argument for why it is sub-optimal, just that it clearly is. You also don't suggest another method of achieving the goal, because, frankly, you're too stupid.

Never mind that in nearly every civil rights movement in the world, open military service (as in non-segregated) has been the gateway to real social change. A fact that's true in your country as well, hence my referencing Winfried Stetcher, who sued the German Army after they demoted him, which ultimately allowed the open service of gays in the German Military.

Never mind that you don't really understand the issue, it's everyone around you that is ignorant.

Never mind that you don't have any understanding of, well...anything, really. What is it that you do that lets you throw stones with such abandon? Because now you've gone from disparaging homosexuals to disparaging military servicemen, on the merits that serving the nation in which you live is a bad idea because...why, the government might screw you over?

This is why I told you to go away. Because you don't understand the concept of doing the right thing at personal cost so that society is a better place for future generations. You are a wart upon society and you will not be missed because all you care about is your personal comfort. You are stupid, selfish, and puerile. You are the child who always got what he wanted and didn't ever care to share because fuck the other kid, you got yours.

You are a stain upon the fabric of society, sir. Hang your head in shame.

General Havoc wrote:I sincerely hope, Batman, that you never have occasion to learn how stupid you actually are.
And for the sake of honesty, Batman, that's not what you said before, not even close. It's stupid in its own right, but it's not what you said. You said that Gays were stupid for joining the military of a nation that hates them. Not that 'it's dumb to join an army'. If you think those two things are equivalent then you are an idiot, and if you do not, then you are a liar. I don't personally care which one is the case.

One of us is being an idiot but it sure as hell isn't me. I made it pretty clear that I think joining an army (especially the US armed forces) is pretty dumb to begin with, period. Yeah, I think signing up to be shot at for a living is dumb period.

After all, if Gays are stupid for living in a nation that hates them, how much stupider are the hundred thousand-odd Jews who live in Germany today for residing in a nation known for shoving them into ovens? Hell. Some of those Jews are in the German army!

Time. It's an awesome concept. That shoving gays into ovens? It happened 70 years ago, and everybody (including ourselves, by the way) agree we were the Bad Guys in that one. A not inconsiderable fraction of the US population thinking gays should go to hell and are whining about how the law won't allow them to see to that? TODAY.

That was your point? You just said that doing so was stupid and sub-optimal. You just claimed that it was a BAD IDEA, and gays were stupid for doing it, and also saying that there were better ways.

You just contradicted yourself. Civil rights in Germany got kickstarted by the military lawsuit, and civil rights in the civilian sector didn't get legal backing until six years later. So what is your point? Because it seems to be the method works, it's really pretty optimal because it managed to do in under a decade what hadn't happened in the sixty years since the war, so what IS the point here, pray tell?

And at the risk of getting into the pissing match, please, do tell, what do YOU do?

Hotfoot wrote:Ah, yes. The rubber and glue argument, very effective. As for stupid, I'll agree that you fit the definition nicely. You are not only ignorant of nearly every subject you speak on, but are actively unwilling to go and do even basic legwork to determine if something you say is true or not. You, in fact, resist any and all efforts to learn, and then have the unmitigated gall to insult people engaged in a struggle you don't understand for doing something you deem sub-optimal with no argument for why it is sub-optimal, just that it clearly is. You also don't suggest another method of achieving the goal, because, frankly, you're too stupid.

At least I'm stupid and alive. And, just for the record, I DO consider getting shot at for a living for a pittance stupid, even if the country you're doing it fore doesn't hate you for being gay or tries its level best to cheat you out of your medical benefits.

Never mind that in nearly every civil rights movement in the world, open military service (as in non-segregated) has been the gateway to real social change. A fact that's true in your country as well, hence my referencing Winfried Stetcher, who sued the German Army after they demoted him, which ultimately allowed the open service of gays in the German Military.

I'm not sure modern day Germany is quite the same as modern day US.

Never mind that you don't really understand the issue, it's everyone around you that is ignorant.

Pretty much, apparently. Apparently you people can't seem to wrap your head around the idea that dieing for your country is not always a good thing and is even less when you're dieing for a country that in no small parts hates you.

Never mind that you don't have any understanding of, well...anything, really. What is it that you do that lets you throw stones with such abandon? Because now you've gone from disparaging homosexuals

Yeah, right, what? I have no clue what you're talking about.

to disparaging military servicemen,

Where,exactly, have I done that? I was doing the OPPOSITE of that.

on the merits that serving the nation in which you live is a bad idea because...why, the government might screw you over?

We're not talking might. We're talking is highly likely to. And yeah, if I were a US veteran, given the amount of screwing over they've gotten, I would be rethinking whether my country is worth it.

This is why I told you to go away. Because you don't understand the concept of doing the right thing at personal cost so that society is a better place for future generations.

You have yet to establish that's what the US did. Because so far, it looks like...you spectacularly failed to do so, still cheated your veterans out of the medical benefits they were no only promised but legally entitled to, oh, and did I mention the failure to make society a better place for future generations part?

You are a wart upon society and you will not be missed because all you care about is your personal comfort. You are stupid, selfish, and puerile. You are the child who always got what he wanted and didn't ever care to share because fuck the other kid, you got yours.
You are a stain upon the fabric of society, sir. Hang your head in shame.

I'm not the one living in the country where a moderately simple medical procedure can put a family in debt for decades while a manager can sink billions in money not his own (ruining thousands of lives in the process), be bailed out by the government and have the same job at the same wage with another company you know.

Batman wrote:. I made it pretty clear that I think joining an army (especially the US armed forces) is pretty dumb to begin with, period. Yeah, I think signing up to be shot at for a living is dumb period.

I'll be keeping your opinion in mind Bats.

Note: I have deleted one of the posts Batman made in this thread upon his request. I did so because there was no reason not to.

Batman wrote:. I made it pretty clear that I think joining an army (especially the US armed forces) is pretty dumb to begin with, period. Yeah, I think signing up to be shot at for a living is dumb period.

Batman wrote:Where,exactly, have I done that [disparaging military servicemen]? I was doing the OPPOSITE of that.

Ladies and gentlemen, I give you an intellectual.

Hotfoot wrote:That was your point? You just said that doing so was stupid and sub-optimal. You just claimed that it was a BAD IDEA, and gays were stupid for doing it, and also saying that there were better ways.

And there are. Anything not likely to get yourself shot dead IS a better way.

You just contradicted yourself.

Not that I can see.

Civil rights in Germany got kickstarted by the military lawsuit, and civil rights in the civilian sector didn't get legal backing until six years later. So what is your point?

That getting shot at for a living is stupid to begin with, and fighting for the right to do so for a country that hates you is, well, hard for me to comprehend? And since they were already granted the right to do so anyway gays being allowed the minor inconvenience of being exposed to Boy Scout camp-outs should be a no biggy?

Because it seems to be the method works, it's really pretty optimal because it managed to do in under a decade what hadn't happened in the sixty years since the war, so what IS the point here, pray tell?

There seem to be several, which we seem to be talking past each other over.
1. Should gays be allowed to be serve in the armed forces. My answer-sure, why the hell not, though I think wanting to do so is stupid even if you're not gay. Everybody exploded into chiding me for considering wanting to be shot at for a living stupid, and
2. assuming that by this I'm a) anti-gay (because I have such a solid record as a homophobe on the fora) and b) somehow think homosexuals trying for military service is somehow a bad idea socially, when I have-repeatedly-indicated via the 'getting shot at for a living' qualifier that I was talking about the 'soldier no good for personal survival'.

And at the risk of getting into the pissing match, please, do tell, what do YOU do?

I'm currently trying to solve an online mess the happening of which still baffles me.

General Havoc wrote:

Batman wrote:. I made it pretty clear that I think joining an army (especially the US armed forces) is pretty dumb to begin with, period. Yeah, I think signing up to be shot at for a living is dumb period.

Batman wrote:Where,exactly, have I done that [disparaging military servicemen]? I was doing the OPPOSITE of that.

Ladies and gentlemen, I give you an intellectual.

Yeah, that probably doesn't come across very well. I especially like how you included the part where I complained about how the US did its level best to cheat its military personell out of the medical benefits they're due under law. Oh wait, you didn't.

Oh, well, because the wise and powerful Batman does not understand something, clearly it makes no sense and should never be done.

You lack empathy, you slime. You lack the very foundation of caring for others that allows the rest of us to understand that when someone does something we're not willing to do, it's not something to be pitied, but respected. You're not willing to face down gunfire, I understand that, neither am I. I don't, however, then turn around and claim that anyone that does it is stupid, as you have done. I certainly don't go around and claim that anyone who does it for both the desire to serve and to prove their status as a human being to their fellow humans, to show that they are not a monster or a myth but a real human being just like them, is doubly stupid. I bring up Germany's ongoing civil rights battle (and it is ongoing, as is ours, which makes this similar enough) because for all your bluster, I can't imagine what you think is the "better" alternative to achieving civil rights, especially since, for all your posturing, your line by line dissections, you have yet to provide an alternative. You've alluded to it, sure, but if you had something, you'd post it by now. All you're doing at this point is digging yourself deeper and deeper into the latrine of your own psyche.

Batman, you are a spoiled child pretending at being an adult. All you want to do is point and laugh at others less fortunate than yourself and chide them for not having the clear wisdom of running and hiding from their problems. You reprobate. When you see others worse off than you, you don't feel bad for them, or think of how to help them, you laugh at them for not having it as good as you. What audacity, what gall you have.

The only reason you can't see how you contradicted yourself is because you had a mod delete your post, you politician. You don't get to pull that shit on me, we all saw what happened. You really are stupid if you think asking a mod to delete the post means it never really happened, especially after I responded to it already.

What is the better way? What? You haven't named anything, I've not named anything. You just assume that anything that doesn't involve personal risk is better. You have no proof, no evidence, nothing! It flies in the face of decades of results! You are denying reality though it is staring you in the face! You have no clothes, Emperor!

And when I ask what you do, I mean your job, your profession, your training, your schooling, anything that would qualify you as an expert on anything other than sitting in your basement on your computer typing whatever comes to your head in the puerile fantasy that anyone should ever pay heed to a single word you unleash from the fetid maw of your misbegotten mind. Anything that would give any manner of justification to the disdain you place on others who do what you do not have to do.

Translation will be provided for english speakers, and because my german is not what it was. However, I do feel the need to do this in German.

I see. The 'I had to live through it, so by Valen, everybody else does too' approach.
And while at least as per rhoenix a case could be made that gays are spared hardship by being banned from the Boy Scouts

Was zur Hölle? Wirklich? Ich bin zuversichtlich dass Rhoenix war albern. Die einzelnen Einheiten variieren. Ergo, eines menschens schlechten Erfahrungen sind nicht allgemein anwendbar.

somebody apparently decided that if gays are stupid enough to want to get shot at for a rather ascetinc living defending the interests of a country that largely hates them and will try to cheat them out of their medical benefits if they get wounded regardless of their sexual orientation willing to serve in the armed forces, they should be allowed to do so.

Bist du sicher dass du bist Deutsch? Ich habe niemals jemanden so blöd wem in Deutschland die Schule fertiggestellt bekannt.

Eine kurze Liste mit Ihren Dummheiten: Warum sollte ein Homosexueller zum Militär?

1) Wirtschaftlichen Gründen existieren. Das Militär zahlt für Bildung und hebt die Menschen aus der Armut.

2) Viele Menschen stark fühlen Bürgerpflicht. Genug, um ihr Leben zu riskieren.

3) Attraktive Männer in der Uniform und Gruppe Duschen. Sie existieren. Ich gestehe, ich bevorzuge Männer in Kettenhemden über Uniformen. Allerdings ist jeder ist anders.

4) Im Militär dienen hilft Bürgerrechtsbewegungen. Es ist fast wie römischer Auxiliary Soldaten Erwerb der Staatsangehörigkeit.

5) Soldiers reisen, und erhalten Jobfähigkeiten wie Flugzeuge reparieren.

Dies alles sind gute Gründe.

Mod please delete this, I seem to have misread what Hotfoot was getting at.

Ich könnte das tun...aber nicht. Es gibt mir zu viel Schadenfreude.