LibriumArcana.Games

At the battle of Hoth, the Rebels deployed men with small arms and a couple medium sized cannons against the Imperial walkers. These weapons were entirely ineffective: the walkers ignored them, and slaughtered them when they tried to flee.

Surely the Rebels would realise ahead of time that hand blasters would do nothing against walkers, so why even send them out there? Were they there thinking the Imperials would just send their own foot troops, or there as a hopeless desperate attempt to slow down the walkers?

They were probably hoping their artillery would disable the walkers and force the Imperial troops to dismount. Then the Imperials are rushing a trench against heavy fire.

It didn't happen, their artillery pieces were far too weak to disable tghe AT-ATs.

The Rebels must have known their 'artillery' wouldn't do zilch to the AT-ATs.
Maybe they were hoping for lucky hits on vulnerable parts, or trying to take out the AT-STs or something.
It would be interesting to know how far from Echo Base those trenches were. The Imps have to dismount and organize somewhere and the closer to the base they do it the higher the chance that they'll be offed one by one as they do so. Maybe the Rebels hoped they'd do so farther out and miscalculated.
Hell I just don't know.

The is something else to consider. The Rebels had to buy time to get the evac out. I doubt they had anything heavier than what we saw and while it didn't do jack shit to the walkers, it had the chance of least slowing the imperials down for a little bit and buying time.

It's never fun to be a mud stomper in a war.

It's also entirely possible that they had simply never seen an AT-AT before. For all we know, the AT-AT's might not have seen action until that very day. We certainly didn't see them in any of the prequels, and we know that for the first few years, they were using legacy equipment from the clone wars, which means that the oldest the AT-AT's could be was maybe 15-18 years old.

In all that time, don't you think it's entirely possible that the rebels on Hoth wouldn't come up against them? I mean, it is a big galaxy, and there are a lot of rebels, the group on Hoth was just one part of it all.

I have to disagree with that. That assumes that

A: these guys can find out about top secret deathstars but not about walkers

B: Rebel groups never talk to each or share information

C: The Empire replaces the gear on one of it's more importent fleets and no one notices.

AT-ATs seem to be pretty standard Imperial equipment, though, what with every ISD carrying them. I find it hard to believe that the Rebels have no information on their capabilities.

Luke did comment that his laser cannons couldn't dent the armour on the AT-AT which suggest that they underestimated their durability.

frigidmagi wrote:I have to disagree with that. That assumes that

A: these guys can find out about top secret deathstars but not about walkers

There's a different between "finding out" and fighting. Case in point, they "found out" the Death Star's weakness, but had it not been for a Jedi and a large amount of luck, they couldn't have exploited it properly. They might have known its basic capabilities, but to be honest, the exact technical specifications of a MBT-equivilant aren't quite on the same level of importance as the plans for a planet-destroying battle station. I don't think the rebels had enough pull to get detailed specs for every piece of Imperial Hardware. They probably knew as much about the performance capabilities of the newer Imperial stuff that the Iraqis knew about our stuff in Desert Shield/Storm.

B: Rebel groups never talk to each or share information

It's entirely possible that communication between rebel groups is limited in order to keep the Empire from finding everyone and wiping them out with a thought. It's entirely possible that the rebel group from Yavin 4 (which seemed to make up most of the group from Hoth) didn't run in to another gruop that had faced the AT-AT's before, and thus didn't know how to adequately fight them. Combine that with the fact that they needed what little space fighters they had to cover the evacuation, and you have some very limited options.

C: The Empire replaces the gear on one of it's more importent fleets and no one notices.

If these had been added as far back as five years prior to the movie, again, it's entirely possible they had never actually been deployed to deal with the rebels. As I understand it, up until ANH, the rebels had been relatively minor in actions. The first time they amassed a large fleet was in RotJ, so it's entirely possible that the first major ground battle between the Empire and the Rebellion was on Hoth. As far as I know, there's really not much in the novels, movies, or EU that would dispute that. Sure, after Hoth there are plenty of ground battles, but everything prior to that is largely glossed over.

As a bit of a tangent, I'd like to know why anti-armor missiles stopped being used in Star Wars. We saw them in the PT, and Lucas was supposed to explain in Ep3 why they weren't viable anymore, but I don't recall that from the movie.

There's a different between "finding out" and fighting. Case in point, they "found out" the Death Star's weakness, but had it not been for a Jedi and a large amount of luck, they couldn't have exploited it properly. They might have known its basic capabilities, but to be honest, the exact technical specifications of a MBT-equivilant aren't quite on the same level of importance as the plans for a planet-destroying battle station. I don't think the rebels had enough pull to get detailed specs for every piece of Imperial Hardware. They probably knew as much about the performance capabilities of the newer Imperial stuff that the Iraqis knew about our stuff in Desert Shield/Storm.

The Iraqis knew quite a bit about the capabilities of a M1-A1 tank, what had happened was that the abilities of a T-72 had been overrated. Also claiming they didn't get their hands on some of the data is damn silly, those things have to be built by the hundred to be of any use, that means there are literally thousands of people outside of the military who know about it. If your network is good enough to find out a Deathstar is being built (the very construction of it was top secret remember?) and misses a the bits on a piece of military hardware that Rebels are going to be fighting way more often than a deathstar... Do I even have to go on. A look at the specifications would tell them "Gee, a light gun hasn't a chance in hell of getting through that armor."

It's entirely possible that communication between rebel groups is limited in order to keep the Empire from finding everyone and wiping them out with a thought. It's entirely possible that the rebel group from Yavin 4 (which seemed to make up most of the group from Hoth) didn't run in to another gruop that had faced the AT-AT's before, and thus didn't know how to adequately fight them. Combine that with the fact that they needed what little space fighters they had to cover the evacuation, and you have some very limited options.

Yet they're able to coordinate a gathering and massive strike... And setting up a place to evac to... Clearly they have some way of communicating and passing around information. Hell they have to have some way to talking or they couldn't have gear like the -Wings. Simple things like Couriers carring coded mail to dead drops would work wonderfully. The Rebel Alliance as shown that there is communication and planning between groups.

If these had been added as far back as five years prior to the movie, again, it's entirely possible they had never actually been deployed to deal with the rebels. As I understand it, up until ANH, the rebels had been relatively minor in actions. The first time they amassed a large fleet was in RotJ, so it's entirely possible that the first major ground battle between the Empire and the Rebellion was on Hoth. As far as I know, there's really not much in the novels, movies, or EU that would dispute that. Sure, after Hoth there are plenty of ground battles, but everything prior to that is largely glossed over.

That's fine expect the rebels ain't the only game in town. There are plenty of other groups and policies that the Impies trade blaster shots with. There is plenty of combat in the Star Wars universe and to not be aware of the equipment of your enemies is unforgiveable in military terms.

It makes more sense for the Rebels to know damn well they can't stop the walkers but try to buy time to slow them down. It doesn't require any mental kung-fu to justifiy or explain.

frigidmagi wrote:The Iraqis knew quite a bit about the capabilities of a M1-A1 tank, what had happened was that the abilities of a T-72 had been overrated. Also claiming they didn't get their hands on some of the data is damn silly, those things have to be built by the hundred to be of any use, that means there are literally thousands of people outside of the military who know about it. If your network is good enough to find out a Deathstar is being built (the very construction of it was top secret remember?) and misses a the bits on a piece of military hardware that Rebels are going to be fighting way more often than a deathstar... Do I even have to go on. A look at the specifications would tell them "Gee, a light gun hasn't a chance in hell of getting through that armor."

The Death Star was top secret, but seriously, compared to every other project in the Empire, the Death Star was a massive undertaking. I mean, a space station the size of a moon? The amount of materials that went into making the Death Star could have likely created an entire new fleet of Star Destroyers, ground forces, fighters, and so on. Heck, the fleet that hit Hoth probably only cost a small fraction of the total cost of materials and work that the first Death Star took up.

When so much material disappears, someone's going to take notice. Once the rebels put two and two together, they probably focused everything they had on figuring out a way to stop it. Such a tremendous threat warranted a major disposal of resources, and it was probably the galvanizing incident that started getting the Rebellion more support, supplies, and so on. Of course, the elimination of the Senate, combined with the destruction of the Death Star probably spiked popular support big time.

Yet they're able to coordinate a gathering and massive strike... And setting up a place to evac to... Clearly they have some way of communicating and passing around information. Hell they have to have some way to talking or they couldn't have gear like the -Wings. Simple things like Couriers carring coded mail to dead drops would work wonderfully. The Rebel Alliance as shown that there is communication and planning between groups.

I'm not saying communication is impossible, just difficult to do without being detected by the Imperials. The assault in RotJ is the first time the entire Rebel fleet had assembled, and the Emperor knew about it. Sure, it might have been the force, but I got the feeling intelligence was involved.

That's fine expect the rebels ain't the only game in town. There are plenty of other groups and policies that the Impies trade blaster shots with. There is plenty of combat in the Star Wars universe and to not be aware of the equipment of your enemies is unforgiveable in military terms.

To a degree, but from what I understood in the ANH-era, the bulk of the fighting was over, save for minor outbreaks of Rebels and a few isolated incidents.

It makes more sense for the Rebels to know damn well they can't stop the walkers but try to buy time to slow them down. It doesn't require any mental kung-fu to justifiy or explain.

It could also be that the guys up top knew that the guns wouldn't work, or wouldn't likely work, but several of the men on the ground didn't know that.

Artillery and HMG-equipped infantry meant that it was vital for the Empire to rely on it's AT-AT's and no other vehicles. It limited the Empire's options, and slowed their advance. This in turn led to the majority of the Rebels to escape.

When so much material disappears, someone's going to take notice.

Expect the matierals to build a fleet are a drop in the bucket in the galaxy, for them to catch that they have to have assets in place to notice other things as well.

The assault in RotJ is the first time the entire Rebel fleet had assembled, and the Emperor knew about it. Sure, it might have been the force, but I got the feeling intelligence was involved.

Evidence? There's also the fact that gathering the whole rebel fleet for a fight would have been... suidice against the Imps. Yeah they got a good fleet, the empire's got several good fleets.

To a degree, but from what I understood in the ANH-era, the bulk of the fighting was over, save for minor outbreaks of Rebels and a few isolated incidents.

There's still quite a bit of disturbence in the border area, not to mentiont that between ANH and ESB there is some heavy fighting.

It could also be that the guys up top knew that the guns wouldn't work, or wouldn't likely work, but several of the men on the ground didn't know that.

It's the guys up top that decide what gets set up on the ground.

frigidmagi wrote:Expect the matierals to build a fleet are a drop in the bucket in the galaxy, for them to catch that they have to have assets in place to notice other things as well.

Yeah, but to catch that a lot of resources and labor are being moved to a space yard that nobody's talking about doesn't require someone on the top level to figure out. Some rebels or rebel sympathizers in shipping and labor make some comments to their buddies, it works up the line, and eventually you have a big old black hole of people and resources that can't be explained by any fleet buildups (remember, Kuat Drive Yards and other such places were big points of the Imperial Industry).

Evidence? There's also the fact that gathering the whole rebel fleet for a fight would have been... suidice against the Imps. Yeah they got a good fleet, the empire's got several good fleets.

Don't have any great evidence, unfortunately, other than that the Emperor knew where to feed the fake intel to (remember, the Bothans died and brought back bad intel about the status of the station). He also knew about the ground team well in advance, indicating either a very good vision or a traitor in the ranks of the Rebellion. There was evidence that the Emperor's own force predictions were getting hazy - he certainly didn't predict Vader turning on him, and I doubt he ran his entire empire on his visions, he had intel officers, he most certainly used spies, and he didn't forsee the son of Skywalker becoming such a huge problem.

There's still quite a bit of disturbence in the border area, not to mentiont that between ANH and ESB there is some heavy fighting.

I've got some Dark Horse comics that depict a decent amount of fighting, but rarely do heavy vehicles come in to play, and I don't know how canon the old Marvel books are now.

It's the guys up top that decide what gets set up on the ground.

It's possible they didn't have anything heavier, or that the conditions on Hoth prevented the heavy guns from being set up (not enough stable ground) or from working properly (extreme cold).

Note: The AT-AT's were indeed used in the prequels, according to the Clone Wars cartoon and the comics from that era, as well as several different walker variants. One presumes they were being used on Hoth due to their superior armour, large capacity and better ground speed (they did have to deploy some distance from the base due to the shield).

I look at it this way. If you are being attacked by a force that you have no chance at defeating, and you need to buy time to let some of your men escape, do you roll over, and let everyone die, or do you sacrifice half the army to allow the other half to escape?

Any competant commander would choose the later option. Live to fight another day.

If they could slow down the imperial advance at all, it would be well worth the cost in lives to get key personel and equipment, most of which was probably purchased in blood already, out of the doomed base.

Elheru Aran wrote:Note: The AT-AT's were indeed used in the prequels, according to the Clone Wars cartoon and the comics from that era, as well as several different walker variants. One presumes they were being used on Hoth due to their superior armour, large capacity and better ground speed (they did have to deploy some distance from the base due to the shield).

I have yet to see any AT-AT's in the comics or in Clone Wars, though admittedly, I've not seen much of Clone Wars. Clone Wars, however, is a little crazy, and I don't know where it scales on the canon ladder.

Virtually every piece of military technology used by the Empire was created after the clone wars, from starships to stormtrooper armor and weapons. While I'm sure there were walkers involved, I rather doubt they were AT-AT's specifically, just as there were no X-Wings, TIE Fighters, or Star Destroyers in the Prequels.

AT-AT precursors were used at the battle of Jabiim, or however it's spelled. That's from the graphic novels, so it's fairly canonical.

They were largely similar to the AT-ATs used at Hoth in appearance, at least.

Petrosjko wrote:AT-AT precursors were used at the battle of Jabiim, or however it's spelled. That's from the graphic novels, so it's fairly canonical.

They were largely similar to the AT-ATs used at Hoth in appearance, at least.

Yeah, but my point is that stuff from the PT =! stuff from the OT. The existance of walkers used in combat is not proof of specific knowledge of a particular type of walker used roughly twenty years later. The closest analog to an X-Wing in the PT required two pilots and was significantly heavier and more complex, similarly so was the precursor to the TIE Fighter, which was clearly designed after the late-model Jedi Starfighters.

Acclamators are not Star Destroyers, Clonetroopers are not Stormtroopers, and so on. Things changed, even if the technology had a rough level of parity, the configurations changed enough to alter the capabilities.