LibriumArcana.Games

Both are planet destroyers (although IIRC Unicron devours planet like Galactus instead of destroying it outright). If they are facing each other, who'll come as the winner? Whose firepower is bigger? Whose shield is stronger?

I regret to report that Unicron has no long distance firepower save his eyebeams. This was shown to not even have enough power to destory ships. Therefore the Deathstar destorys him before he can grapple.

How about firepower? I remember reading that Death Star's firepower is far in excess of that is required to destroy a planet, because it can destroy a planet outright regardless of planetary shield (Alderaan is an example). How about Unicron?

I regret to report that Unicron has no long distance firepower save his eyebeams. This was shown to not even have enough power to destory ships. Therefore the Deathstar destorys him before he can grapple.

Already answered.

In a straight up fight, mechnical being vs monsterous space station, the Death Star will take it.

It has the superlaser alone which is capable of taking out a planet, much less Unicron which is more like the size of a large moon.

Unicron's firepower in robot mode is completely and utterly crap, his eye beams and the plasmafire looking breath weapon from his mouth was unable to destroy ships themselves, though I'm not sure if we have an ability to gauge Transformer ship construction processes, we have no way to tell how strong thier hulls are. Still, for something the size of Unicron to not have the firepower to blow up a ship in one hit means it's weaponry rates low, I'd hazard maybe a few megatons of firepower per beam if the TF's have very durable (and I'm taking Imperial quality) hulls.

Someone better with numbers could probably give you a better idea on that though.


BTW, that's my uninformed opinion, don't take my words for truth.

IIRC, from scaling efforts, Unicron is actually more the size of an large asteroid than a planet... notably from the image of him swallowing Megatron (or was that whatshisname, Galvatron?). Since we know whoever-it-was's size (pretty well anyway), and he's about the size of a large bite for Unicron, the big U is definitely *not* even moon-sized.

Unicron receives a superlaser enema...

Attempting to scale based off of the movie is going to fail, miserably. Either in terms of scale or in terms of size.

There are times the Unicron is either the size of moons (referance when he eats Moon base 1 and 2, also a rough guestimate of when he's gone into robot mode and is standing on Cybertron) and times like Elheru mentioned when he's likely the size of a large asteroid.

In terms of firepower. The movie gives us scenes where a single blast will blow out the side of a ship, and yet a full scale battle inside does nothing. Then there is the fact that when the ship is coming in, when Hot Rod shoots Starscream he simply falls back, but then another shot from Hot Rod only a few seconds later goes through the entire ship.

In short, I don't believe there is any way to appropriately scale based off of the movie. The best I think we could do is the law of averages.

Unicron's firepower in robot mode is completely and utterly crap, his eye beams and the plasmafire looking breath weapon from his mouth was unable to destroy ships themselves,

Not entirely true. The ship that Hot Rod and Kup were on would have been destroyed by that blast had it hit them directly, because if I remember correctly the beam fired cut a rather large hole through the ship. And I believe the reason the junk planet ship didn't get destroyed was simply the fact that it was built damn tough. Hell, Unicron had to apparently put effort into crushing the thing and he still didn't kill all the Junkbots. Though, once again, this could simply be more of the same randomly changing firepower figures.

EDIT: Tacked on that very last sentance so as there was no confusion.

Even with all that, he still gets pasted by the Death Star before he gets anywhere near it.

movie or comic unicron?

Elheru Aran wrote:IIRC, from scaling efforts, Unicron is actually more the size of an large asteroid than a planet... notably from the image of him swallowing Megatron (or was that whatshisname, Galvatron?). Since we know whoever-it-was's size (pretty well anyway), and he's about the size of a large bite for Unicron, the big U is definitely *not* even moon-sized.

Unicron receives a superlaser enema...

the death start 2 woudl fit in his mouth area, in planet mode, if we are talking about movie one.

Don't bring mandiles to a gunfight!

While Comic Unicron may also be the incarnation of destruction, the Death Star will annihilate his body and leave him to spend millions of years becoming a giant transformer again.

SirNitram wrote:Don't bring mandiles to a gunfight!

While Comic Unicron may also be the incarnation of destruction, the Death Star will annihilate his body and leave him to spend millions of years becoming a giant transformer again.

it all depends on if it can destroy the body.
btw. good site.
http://www.unicron.com/mainpage/unicron/unicron.htm

good one for the comic.

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Station ... icron.html

Ali Sama wrote:

SirNitram wrote:Don't bring mandiles to a gunfight!

While Comic Unicron may also be the incarnation of destruction, the Death Star will annihilate his body and leave him to spend millions of years becoming a giant transformer again.

it all depends on if it can destroy the body.

Absolutely. 1e38J will destroy some stars. People apparently don't appreciate how much go-juice that is, but it is more than enough to destroy Unicron, even if he's made of Eka-Lead, the theoretical stable transuranic.

well other then the fact that this is now considered thread necromancy I must argue that you are all absolutely delusional.

The very idea that Unicron would lose is preposterous, insane, ludicris.

In this battle of devestating powers it's quite clear that Unicron would handily deeat the Death star, in either of its forms. After even casual examination, they're not really similar at all, with Unicron having a sizable advantage over the two Death Stars. In arguing for Unicron really the only thing that needs to be said is this: the Death Stars, both of them, were mere space stations, crewed by carbon-based life forms. Unicron, on the other hand, is a sentient being. Therefore, decisions are made instantly instead of being shuffled through the thousands that are needed to run the Death Star. Unicron is simply more versatile. He's capable of transforming from planet mode to humanoid mode and manuvering as such, which would make him capable of moving out of the way of the Death Star's main gun. The fighters from the Death Star would be ineffective. To use a comparison, the decepticon jets scrambled from Cybertron in an effort to fend off Unicron when he attacked were useless. None of them were even able to make a dent in Unicron, and although the subsequent attack by the Dinobots hammering at full strength against his undefended backside were able to produce some minor surface damage it was negligible at best. Mere fighters destroyed both Death Stars. You can argue that the second Death Star was invincible while its shielf was up but what is to stop Unicron from eating Endor or simply ripping out the shield generator out with his bare hands along with a buttload of the surrounding terrain?

The main(and really only) argument used by you Death Star proponents is the use of the Death Star's main gun. This gun was used to great effect in destroying Alderaan, but it's effectiveness against Unicron would be questionable. Alderaan is a run-of-the-mill planet presumably made primarily of earth, while Unicron is a fully functioning planet sized machine made of unearthly metals. Unicron was able to withstand the detonation of one of Cybertron's moons halfway within him without even a scratch. Also, the main gun is probably the only weapon on the Death Star capble of even making him flinch, and it's on a fixed mount. All Unicron would have to do is simply transform from planet mode and maneuver himself so that he will be behind the Death Star and he could simply start tearing apart the Death Star, just as he did when he attacked Cybertron.

An arguement to this is probably well that's assuming Unicron could get close enough. You have two technologicially advanced races display that they couldn't even pick up Unicron on any sort of sensors till he was right on top of them. These two races, for the sake of argument are the Lithoneians of the planet Lithone, the planet first devoured at the begining of the movie. The second was the cybertronians (the Transformers) when moon base 1 was devoured. Now consider that this is a military moonbase that is in the middle of an interstellar war that has spanned millions upon millions of years. I'm going to go out on a limb and think that they would be capable of picking up an object the size of a planet that appeared inside of their system or at least within range to eat or attack them.

What you all aren't considering is the fact that he's a god. The Dark God of Chaos in the transfomers universe to be exact. He demonstrated the ability of farsight by viewing the deaths of Optimus Prime and the transfer of the Matrix to Big Suck Los-errr I mean Ultra Magnus. Sorry, personal dislike there... He wasn't present or otherwise informed of these events yet saw them and heard them. He is also capable of manufacturing ships at will and creating life and granting new life to mortally wounded transformers. Also, as proven, the only thing capable of taking him out is the Autobot Matrix of Leadership. In his own words "It is the one thing, the only thing that can stand in my way." Coming from a god, that's a rather absolute sort of statement I would imagine.

The only real advantage that the Death Star has it that is has a hyperdrive. This gives the Death Star a distinct speed advantage. What Unicron lacks ins peed, however, he more then makes up for in endurance. Unicron is as old as time itself, he will eventually catch up. It may take years, decades, centuries, millenia. He is a god, what is time to him?

In the battle of planet killers, Unicron, the omniscient god of chaos, is the obvious hands down here folks.

B4UTRUST wrote:well other then the fact that this is now considered thread necromancy I must argue that you are all absolutely delusional.

The very idea that Unicron would lose is preposterous, insane, ludicris.

.......

In the battle of planet killers, Unicron, the omniscient god of chaos, is the obvious hands down here folks.

You're joking, right?

no, not even close. Unicron would win.

B4UTRUST wrote:no, not even close. Unicron would win.

The number of fallacies you commit is amazing. Would you like the list?

RE: Robot mode, you forgot DS2 can target light cruiser sized ships capable of going significant c-fractions. Unless this Unicron has the Naggarok's inertialess drive or some equivalent, it's gonna get hit by the DS (if it's facing in that hemisphere, of course). Although they won't have nearly the effectiveness, I expect those millions of HTL's on the surface will at least annoy him.

Then Sir you are on crack.

Unicron has at no time displayed the speed or maneuverablity needed to dance around the Death Star, a machine that was capable of FTL in it's own right.

Second the 2nd death star was able to target and hit crusiers. Ships infintely smaller and more agile than Unicron. I demand proof that Unicron can outdance rebel cruisers.

3rd there is no data on the abilities the Lithoneians, other than the fact that they were substancably less well armed than the Autobots and had a less of a space presence. It is my belief that they are less advanced by the sheer fact that there were no Lithoneian ships or orbital emplacements.

4th the Moon Base was only large enough to warrent 2 personnale stationed upon it. Given that and it's position right next fucking door to the Decepticon main base, it must be believed that it was not large enough to support a larger presence. Therefore it could not generate the power that the main gun of the Death Star, unless you have proof of otherwise?

Has for his Godhood, it is a nonissue. He has a phyiscal body, anything phyiscal may be destroyed or damaged to the point of non-function. While Unicron may or may not be alive after the battle means nothing if he cannot harm the Death Star or anything else.

make him capable of moving out of the way of the Death Star's main gun.

The destructive part of the beam is a lightspeed weapon B4. There is no getting ou of the way. And considering the well documented acceleration of SW ships, deathstar included, and considering that the beam is capable of firing off axis... Unicron is fucking screwed. All the emperor has to do is give the command to fire at will, and the individual gunner for the deathstar superlaser has the power needed to target and fire the beam, with help from a few extra hands of course.

Unicron, unless he can accelerate around the deathstar faster than it can rotate itself, and unless he can outrun a planet destroying beam. He is boned.

Mere fighters destroyed both Death Stars.

By exploiting a design flaw in the first which allowed them to penetrate it's defenses with a small proton torpedo; and by flying into the incomplete superstructure in the other. That says nothing of the ability of the deathstar, either one of them, to stop an attack by Unicron.

but what is to stop Unicron from eating Endor or simply ripping out the shield generator out with his bare hands along with a buttload of the surrounding terrain?

The deathstar shooting him while he is busy. And it has other weapons besides the superlaser. Like the literally thousands of heavy turbolasers, each with a desructive yield in the teraton range, and each controlled by one independant gunner. ANd if you think they can miss a moon or asteroid sized object which could not possibly accelerate faster than the 5000 g minimum straight line acceleration of a fighter... well... you are on crack.

Also, the second deathstar was not designed to be dependant on a planetary shield when it was completed. That shielding system would be integrated into it once it was completed. Making it invulnerable even to a star going supernova.

Also, the main gun is probably the only weapon on the Death Star capble of even making him flinch, and it's on a fixed mount

It can fire off-axis.

Alderaan is a run-of-the-mill planet presumably made primarily of earth, while Unicron is a fully functioning planet sized machine made of unearthly metals.

does not mean a gorram thing. The deathstar has a power-output of, at bare minimum 1E38 joules, and that is assuming no inefficiencies in the energy transfer. The detonation of a moon is not even a significant fraction of that, nor is it anywhere near as directed.

be behind the Death Star

And how would he do that pray-tell? Simple geometry means that a massive sphere can rotate itself faster than another entity can circle it, all other things being equal.

An arguement to this is probably well that's assuming Unicron could get close enough. You have two technologicially advanced races display that they couldn't even pick up Unicron on any sort of sensors till he was right on top of them. These two races, for the sake of argument are the Lithoneians of the planet Lithone, the planet first devoured at the begining of the movie. The second was the cybertronians (the Transformers) when moon base 1 was devoured. Now consider that this is a military moonbase that is in the middle of an interstellar war that has spanned millions upon millions of years. I'm going to go out on a limb and think that they would be capable of picking up an object the size of a planet that appeared inside of their system or at least within range to eat or attack them.

Age is nothing, technological advancement is everything.

I will echo FM's statements on this.

I will point out that SW sensors are capable of accuratly targeting a ship in the orbit of a planet in the babitable zone and hitting said target... from a range which is outside the solar system.

What you all aren't considering is the fact that he's a god.

If he has a physical body, which he does, he can be vaporised.

He is also capable of manufacturing ships at will and creating life and granting new life to mortally wounded transformers.

And star wars tech has been shown to be able to do all of those things. The emperor is capable of destroying fleets with his mind, I seem to remember.

You want to talk God, the demonstrated properties of the palpatine clone easiy qualify.

"It is the one thing, the only thing that can stand in my way."

In HIS universe

How the fuck am I on crack? Because I don't believe that Star Wars is the penultimate of all that is powerful?

For Unicron's speed. 11 seconds from the time of his positioning prior to the attack on Cybertron to impact. Now granted that's not light speed but it's rather impressive considering he just traveled the length of his body several times over. At the size of a planet, that would put his height at what? If he was approximately the size of earth and no scale was given to how big cybertron was in comparison to earth that would put him at what size? The earth is about 24.8thousand miles around. If you halfed that just for the height of him (remember now he did consume planets whole and was seen to be bigger then them and when shown next to cybertron he wasn't as massive but his feet were clearly seen below and his upper torso above indicating he was bigger in height at least) that would put him at about 12.4 thousand miles? And he moved that at least 3-4 times over in a matter of seconds. So 37.2 to 49.6 thousand miles in about 11 seconds. Galvatron had barely finished his angst-ridden scream when Unicron started laying waste. Now granted he doesn't have warp drive or FTL capabilities that are shown, in regular space I'm pretty sure he could "dance" with a ship at that speed. And when you can swat them away from you like bugs, dancing is optional.

The Lithionians, as described in the Transformers Universe were a robotic race of high technological advancement. They were also considered more emotionally enlightened then the transformers and were possibly more technologically advanced though sufficent evidence to this was not shown in any continuity, just hinted at. They were, however, of sufficent technological advancement to have space faring capabilities, knowledge of multiple other species in the universe and the means to deal with them. It was also hinted that they themselves were similarly an offshoot of the transformers or another of the Quintessions creations. They also displayed the ability to transform though it appears that their transformation was all the same, unlike the transformers who had random and varied transformation sequences. Their transformation was what appeared to be a shuttle craft though the capabilities they posessed in this form are again speculation. In regard to their lack of ships if they themselves were the ships what need would they have for them? And by the way if you would check the movie, one of the first lines is in regard to their ships so its obvious they have them, they're quick, agile and capable of exiting extreme gravity wells. The line was "The ships! Get to the ships! It's our only chance!" Orbulis' ship sadly did not escape as it launched after Kranix's, or was perhaps damaged but regardless it did not escape Unicron and was destroyed. Kranix did escape and crashlanded on Quintessia Prime and was next seen in jail awaiting trial. And they were a rather peaceful race so orbital weapons platforms were not something they had.

The moon bases. This is a matter of some contention towards the size and capability of them. The moon bases themselves weren't occupied by only two 'bots. If you recall almost all of the autobots at the beginning of the movie were stationed between those. Well those that weren't on earth at any rate. This included Optimus Prime, Iron hide, Huffer, Jazz, etc etc etc. They had full shuttle launch facilities, processing plants, quarters, command and military stations and were capable of supporting more then just two. That was moon base 1 at any rate. As for moon base two, it was manned by Bumblebee and Spike, possibly the two most useless characters in the series followed closely only by Daniel Whitwicky who's shining moments were numbered at two. Spotting the hole in the shuttle and knocking down the acid cover. Would you want to serve on a moonbase with those two? Regardless looking at it more factually and less opinionatedly moonbase two was understaffed. Possibly they were awaiting transfer out of new members. This was a war and resources were slim. It was possible that all but the minimum personel were left behind when Prime packed up to go to earth's rescue. At the beginning it was full of autobots. When Unicron devoured them they each had two. So it was perhaps an instance where you four stay and man the stations, the rest of us are going to help earth.

As to the moon's destructive capabilities or power plant, the explosives set blew up the moon prior to it being consumed. Unicron's only damage to it at that point was his gravity well had torn off paneling and such and he had gotten his "fangs" into it. He had yet to begin processing it when it blew. And the explosives blew up the entire moon made of hardened alloy metals and other unkown elements and didn't even scratch him. The rationalization for the hardness of the moons is comparing it to the stuff that cybertron itself was made out of. It supported the full weight of the bodies of the transformers and was capable of withstanding attacks with their weapons to a degree. Like anything after awhile it broke. It is unknown how solid or unsolid the moon itself was, or exactly how large but given that he ate it more or less whole it was a little smaller then Lithone in size.

And finally in contention of his non-functionality. Yeah, that worked real well in the series too. The matrix blew his body apart and sent his severed head into orbit making a new moon around Cybertron. I'd say that's a fairly grevious wound that would put one on the list non-functionality. But he was still concious and able. Or as able as a head can be at any rate. He in that state didn't have any great means of movement though he apparently could move some. He was also still capable of telepathy and the creation of life, or at least bodies and was still apparently capable of devouring or altering large objects since his goal was to attach himself to Cybertron and make a new body for himself by integrating himself into Cybertron. This was stopped at the last minute however and the resulting explosion destroyed a bit of Cybertron and blew Unicron's head into orbit again and sent him into a state of topor. He was later again awoken and even after the extra damage dealt by the explosion to his physical form he was still capable of his powers. In later series his head had gone missing from Cybertron's orbit. He apparently got a new body somehow as he was mentioned as still being around.

Extrapolating from the orbital position of jupiter's fourth moon, it seems that the death star, if moving at a constant velocity instead of accelerating as it should (This throws off the math massively BTW), would be moving at 38,896.067677866666666666666666667 KM per 11 seconds, minimum. Bear in mind, this is a low end. Yavin is actually a larger gas giant than jupiter is, last I checked, and I can only extrapolate regarding the orbital distance of said moon.

This, if we account for such things, brings rough speed to around parity. So much for dancing around the death star. Especially considering its multi-teraton yield secondary weapons

The moon bases. This is a matter of some contention towards the size and capability of them. The moon bases themselves weren't occupied by only two 'bots. If you recall almost all of the autobots at the beginning of the movie were stationed between those. Well those that weren't on earth at any rate. This included Optimus Prime, Iron hide, Huffer, Jazz, etc etc etc. They had full shuttle launch facilities, processing plants, quarters, command and military stations and were capable of supporting more then just two. That was moon base 1 at any rate. As for moon base two, it was manned by Bumblebee and Spike, possibly the two most useless characters in the series followed closely only by Daniel Whitwicky who's shining moments were numbered at two. Spotting the hole in the shuttle and knocking down the acid cover. Would you want to serve on a moonbase with those two? Regardless looking at it more factually and less opinionatedly moonbase two was understaffed. Possibly they were awaiting transfer out of new members. This was a war and resources were slim. It was possible that all but the minimum personel were left behind when Prime packed up to go to earth's rescue. At the beginning it was full of autobots. When Unicron devoured them they each had two. So it was perhaps an instance where you four stay and man the stations, the rest of us are going to help earth.

Irrelevant to moonbase firepower or power generation capabilities.

s to the moon's destructive capabilities or power plant, the explosives set blew up the moon prior to it being consumed.

Where were the explosives, and what was the size and composition of the moon?

As to the moon's destructive capabilities or power plant, the explosives set blew up the moon prior to it being consumed. Unicron's only damage to it at that point was his gravity well had torn off paneling and such and he had gotten his "fangs" into it. He had yet to begin processing it when it blew. And the explosives blew up the entire moon made of hardened alloy metals and other unkown elements and didn't even scratch him. The rationalization for the hardness of the moons is comparing it to the stuff that cybertron itself was made out of. It supported the full weight of the bodies of the transformers and was capable of withstanding attacks with their weapons to a degree. Like anything after awhile it broke. It is unknown how solid or unsolid the moon itself was, or exactly how large but given that he ate it more or less whole it was a little smaller then Lithone in size.

It is not even solid in all probability? Suddenly, regardless of composition, the idea of this somehow making your magical god of chaos powerful is becoming more laughable.

I'd say that's a fairly grevious wound that would put one on the list non-functionality. But he was still concious and able. Or as able as a head can be at any rate.

Let's see him remain concious when he is vaporised by a 1E38 joule minimum energy beam. In fact, It is probably more than that, but...that is the bare minimum.

And.. let me get this straight. An explosion that only destroyed an infintessimal part of a planet was enough to launch his head into orbit? This does not bode well for the material contruction of his head when compared to SW firepower. SHit, I wonder what a heavy turbolaser would do to his torso. To bring you up to speed, SW military ship hulls are laced with small amounts of nutronium.

You may as well bow out Scott, I'm as big of, if not a larger TransFan than you, and I admitted way up in the begining of the thread that Unicron would get handed his rotator ciffs by the DS I or II.

This was Thread Necronmancy, but as a new debate is in progress, I does not warrent a lock until such time as the debate is at a end.

But seriously, lil bro, just concede. Warsd firepower is levels beyond Transformers, and TF canon(maybe the wrong spelling) is to vague to be of use.

SirNitram wrote:

Ali Sama wrote:

SirNitram wrote:Don't bring mandiles to a gunfight!

While Comic Unicron may also be the incarnation of destruction, the Death Star will annihilate his body and leave him to spend millions of years becoming a giant transformer again.

it all depends on if it can destroy the body.

Absolutely. 1e38J will destroy some stars. People apparently don't appreciate how much go-juice that is, but it is more than enough to destroy Unicron, even if he's made of Eka-Lead, the theoretical stable transuranic.

he was coming out of a sun in the movie. Can see the pic in the link, I provided.

Ali Sama wrote:he was coming out of a sun in the movie. Can see the pic in the link, I provided.

So? The DS blast released as much energy as a yellow star does over the period of seven thousand years, except without that pesky waiting seven mileenia.

Do the Unicron fanboys grasp what an 'Appeal To Ignorance' is, and why it's a fallacy?