LibriumArcana.Games

Saturday, I was paid to watch the Dark Knight movie (Top That!), I have decided to go ahead and start a discussion thread on it here.

The following section is Spoiler free:

The starting place and non-spoilerish plot thoughts.

The Dark Knight picks up some time after Batmen Begins ended, the damaged of the rampage of madmen has been completely repaired and Gotham has never looked shiner and newer. Batman has been very busy to the point that normal crooks won't work that night if they see so much as a bat symbol in the sky. Unlike Batman Begins, the movie starts on a high point for the characters of Batman, Gordan and Rachael Dawes, don't worry that won't last. If Batman Begins was about clawing your way up from a low, The Dark Knight is about plunging screaming into the abyss. It's a deep dark one and you'll being pushed into it by someone who seems more a force of nature or personification of Chaos then a real human being. That being the Joker. This is frankly the Joker's movie (Silence was the first to point that out to me, so let's all give him a round of applause shall we?). I'll talk more about him in a bit.

My advice when you go to see it? Pee before the movie and drink NOTHING! You don't want to miss a bit.

Now let's talk about that plunge shall we? (Some Spoliers ahead proceed with caution).
















A word about themes

The abyss in question is spiritual, emotional, mental and physical in this movie. The physical in the sheer chaos unleashed upon poor suffering Gotham and the characters by the Joker. Like I said this is his damn movie and he fucking owns it and does it rough. He kills, destroys and poisons with a wild abandon that leaves the entire city screaming. But believe it or not the physical isn't Joker's main target, it's just his lever. Emotionally, the Joker is again the main hitter as well, but alot of it is gonna be self inflicted, every major character experiences doubt, fear, confusion and despair they aren't glossed over here because in a very real way, these moments are the point. Every act that the Joker commits seems to be geared to creating the condinations for these moments. Mentally as well as the Joker's actions grinds into all the character's weak spots. Spiritually... The Joker's great goal seems to be to take a city of average men and women just starting to believe that things can be better, that they can be better and reducing them to savages by breaking their spirits. To quote the Joker "You think I bet the battle for Gotham's soul on a fistfight?" There are wheels turning here and people are getting crushed under them.

The sum up comes from the Joker for this

"Madness as you know is alot like Gravity, all it takes is one little push!"





Really there are some big spoliers ahead.
















Let's talk characters:

The Joker... Man, where to start? Heath Ledger gives us the most terrifying Joker to appear on any screen. This may be his last performance ever but oh God what a last performance. Give this guy an Oscar for the coffin, fuck give him three! Jack Nickelson's Joker looks downright tame and clownish compared to this guy. Mark Hamel's Joker is left looking kind of mortal and petty.

The Joker isn't given an origin in this movie. I have to admit I was a bit doubtful of this, but the writer here knew what the fuck he was doing. Giving this Joker an origin would just lessen him.I walked out of that movie convinced that Joker wasn't a man but a Force of Nature. Joker appears in the first scene of the movie fully formed. He wears makeup, he's scarred, he wants to fuck up Batman and everyone else on the planet. He's bugfuck crazy but smart, chaotic but capable of frightening levels of organization in a psychopath, a completely inhuman, immoral mad dog with the mind of a general. Basically if Charles Mason had been this good, he would be running the damn country by now. He does whatever he wants, with no rules at all. The mirror image of our dark hero. Let's be honest, this Joker is the new definition of Chaotic Evil

Here's what I think we can safely say about Joker, he hates his father for an undisclosed reason (Joker gives two different stories as to his facial scars, his father as a mean drunk appears in one of them, during his raid on Bruce Wayne's fund raiser he tells an older gent that he reminds him of his father and he hated his father. The emotional heat of the statement leads to me regard it as an accidental pearl of truth.) The two stories also paint the Joker as a victum, an unwilling creation. Honestly this outreach for empathy and compassion would be believable from anyone else. From the Joker, I think he just does it so that'll it'll be funnier when he stabs your eyes out.


Bruce Wayne/Batman: I gotta say I admire Christian Bale's pure acting ability here, in the last movie he did a great job of showing us Bruce Wayne inventing Batman. In this movie he does a great job of showing us Batman swallowing up Bruce Wayne. Christian Bale is playing Bruce Wayne playing Batman playing Bruce Wayne. It has reached a point where Bruce Wayne is now a tool of the Batman, not the other way around. In this movie the crossroads is reached and choices are made that can't be taken back.

As you might guess this gives old Bruicey alot of second thoughts. Frightened of what he is becoming, wavering that it might be to far and scared to death that it won't be enough. He's also a bit discouraged that Batman isn't so much an inspiring figure as a frightening one. He's thinking it may be time to start looking for the exits (we'll talk about this in the Harvey Dent section).

Batman himself has a few calls to make as well. What's more important to him, what people think or doing what is needed? Can he do the right thing even if means becoming separated from human society, more then he was before anyways. The Greeks who created alot of our heroic archtypes didn't quite have the same meaning for the word Hero has we did. When they call someone a hero they meant someone who did larger then life deeds and paid larger then life costs to do them. At the end of this Batman is going to become the modern day poster boy for that definition. He'll start this movie applauded by Gotham's populace or at least fondly tolerated, but the end, he'll be hunted and literally hounded.

Gordan, the cop. The movie opens up with once lowly patrolmen Gordan in charge of the major crimes unit hitting the mob. He thinks he can wipe out the mob once and for all. His parntership with Batman is maturing to the point he gets text messages from the Bat and goes on them without question. Can't argue with results though can ya? Still Gordan is dealing a police force more corrupt then Washington D.C's force and that's saying something. Plus he is getting on in years, who is gonna around to pick up the game that he can trust? Not to mention the mark that making deals with the devil (remember his corrupt partner? or for that matter Batman himself? Gordans' broken alot of laws just looking the other way here).

Gordan is gonna have it all in his teeth only to get it yanked out. He's gonna reach heights he thought barred to him (Commissioners office is his before the end of the movie) and the triumph is gonna turned to dust, as he is forced to live one hell of a lie. His speech(es) at the end is loaded with double meaning. Think about what he means when he says "Not the Hero we deserve but the Hero we need" and "He's the Hero we deserve but not the one we need right now."

Rachel Dawes, in a way I feel for this poor girl. She's watching her oldest friend, little Bruce Wayne disappear into this dark menacing figure and she's becoming very sure that Bruce, her Bruce anyway, won't ever be coming back. She rather firmly fallen out of love here, although she remains his friend (for all the good that'll do her). But hey, she's found a new white knight and he shines soooo bright now don't he? Her death is what completes the plunge into the nadir of the howling abyss and damn it's a gut shot.

Harvey Dent, if Bruce Wayne is looking for an exit, it's marked Harvey Dent. If Gordan is looking for a guy to pick up the ball after he's left the game, he's looking at a Jersey with Dent's name on it. In short Harvey is the White Knight and the Great Hope. The guy who will remove the need for Batman and carry on the great work.

Of course Dent's a human being. In love with Rachel Dawes and in the course of the movie proposes to her. It's that love that brings him down. If this movie is about plunges into the Abyss then Harvey's fall is one of the main journey's of the film. Of course you see hints of the darkness through the movie and Batman's and Gordon denial or attempts to keep Harvey from going to far into it.

On a side note, I want to say I think they greatly improved on Two-Face's origin here. It always felt a little loose to me before but now, well it works pretty well. Two-Face is a creation of the Joker, a masterpiece of chaos and madness you could say. What Gordon and Batman do after Two-Faces death is kinda shocking but utterly logical.

I'm gonna go ahead and throw open the floor for comments now.

Saw it last night.

In total agreement with Frigid, Ledger's Joker scared the ever living shit outta me....and I can see why there was rumors that Ledger had problems after playing the role.

There were several times I found myself laughing at the Joker..but only because it wasn't happening to me. I'm sure faced with him, I'd be scared shitless.

I can't wait to see this movie. Sharkbait and I have avoided all spoilers as much as possible other than listening to people rave about how good this movie is. (I even sped past Magi's spoilers as not to ruin it.) We get to see it this weekend with his family in NC. A girl I work with said and I quote: "If Heath [Ledger] hadn't died, he would have wanted to so this could be his finale. That's how good he was."

I am so looking forward to this.

I really have nothing to add to your review, Frigid... you hit it all perfectly. Ledger's Joker is utterly terrifying, not only in his actions, but because his actions are all part of a frightening plan.

Nitram's pointed out on SDN's review thread that the Joker espouses Chaos and calls himself a mad dog chasing cars, but he shows a scary level of genius planning to his acts. We see this with the timing of the opening bank heist: money's in the bags, ready to transport just as the stolen bus crashes in. Kill the last of the helpers, load up, and pull out just in time to become another in a line of school buses heading home.

The massive killing may be madness, a desire to see the world burn, but the Joker's every scheme was well-planned out and made to lead those around him into doing what he wanted them to do. See how he announced a warning about the subway and the bridges, just so people would be loaded right where he wanted them onto the ferries.

The writers gave Ledger all the ammunition he needed, and he made a Joker that will never be topped.

. The entire movie was Joker setting up Harvey Dent. Joker tries to set Batman up, but only slightly, more to test him than to actually break him. He knows that without the Batman he is nothing.

Joker to Batman wrote:You complete me

Best Joker
Best Two-Face
Best Gordon
Best Bruce
Best Batman

EVER.

A salute to the final performance of Heath Ledger, truly he will be missed.

Let me be the first to say something bad about this movie: some of the lines in the first act, regarding heroes, dictators, and falls; were forced and didn't ring true. They lines forced into the characters' mouths.

That's it. The rest of the movie was awesome. A lot has been said about Ledger's Joker and it's true. Eckhart's Dent deserves a lot of attention as well. The casting for him was perfect, he looks like the iron jawed crusader, fearless, and virtous and damn if he doesn't deliver. His tragic descent is perfectly played.

The ending wasn't much of a surprise or a shock to me. The only way to subvert the Joker's victory was for the Batman to take upon himself Harvey's crimes, which add to the cloak of fear and mystery surrounding the Batman, restoring an aura of menace that the Joker demolished. Batman being pursued by the city he has struggled to save as a self inflicted wound to protect his city is a perfect metaphor for his existence. Bruce Wayne destroys his life to be Batman, a sacrificing he willingly makes even though it costs him dearly.

They hit this one out of the park.

Honestly...if their going to do another Joker, I can think of only one actor who could replace Ledger in the role.

Johnny Depp.

Otherwise, no one else could fit the role as well as Ledger did...

I loved the movie. My only real complaint was the 'Batman Voice' Bale did. It annoyed the hell out of me. It made my throat hurt just listening to it. Other then that, I really enjoyed it along with the hints about future villians in it. Mister Reece for instance...

B4UTRUST wrote:I loved the movie. My only real complaint was the 'Batman Voice' Bale did. It annoyed the hell out of me. It made my throat hurt just listening to it. Other then that, I really enjoyed it along with the hints about future villians in it. Mister Reece for instance...

A) it is intimidating
B) If he didnt do it, people might recognize his voice. He is a public figure afterall... and he already has the lower part of his face showing.

Alright, let me clarify then. It's not that I didn't understand the need to change the voice. It's obvious there was a need and a good reason to do it. However, it was the voice itself that annoyed me, not the neccessity behind it. It wasn't intimidating, it was painful.

I just got back from the movie.

It was stunning, I mean that absolutely literally. The movie stunned me physically, until I was sitting in my chair in a daze. Everyone was excellent, but Ledger simply blew everyone away, literally and figuratively. He was twisted, sadistic, brilliant, mad, and absolutely believable the entire time. Not one second did I spend rolling my eyes at the joker's antics. He was one of the most incredible villains I've ever seen realized on screen, a tour-de-force that makes Ledger's own death all the more horrible. He embodied the Joker in a way that I've never seen anyone embody a larger-than-life character. He WAS the joker, absolutely, 100%.

And all the others... my god. Dent, Wayne, Gordon... all three of them were riveting. Dent in particular played it close to the line, a role that should have been impossible. Two-face is a ridiculous character on the face of things (but then, so is Joker), and I thought he did a great job embodying that. He was even better before his accident though as the White Knight. Believable in every way, likable, human and yet at the same time larger-than-life, falling into his role as a symbol like it was the most natural thing in the world.

I always thought Oldman's rendition of Gordon was under appreciated in the previous film, but this time around I was certain of it. Oldman played Gordon just like he should be played: an everyman with a core of wrought iron. Not flashy, not crusading, but inexorable, unbreakable, and never ever EVER giving up. Joker places someone in danger? Guard him yourself if you must. He blows up a hospital? Call the National Guard in. Joker won't cooperate? Make arrangements with Batman. Joker takes two cruise ships hostage with a Spanish Prisoner bomb game in play and you have snipers preparing to engage what you think is his position while the Batman himself begs you for more time and your family has been taken hostage by Two-Face while the city is threatened with Armageddon? Make the calls and deal with it. I actually fell for the trick where they "killed" him, and I nearly cheered when he planted a shotgun to the back of Joker's head.

And Batman? Bale did a hell of a job. I didn't find his voice all that distracting, but I see where you're coming from. Nevertheless, he embodied Batman just perfectly, and Bruce Wayne even more so, I felt at least. It's hard to describe why, but I got the feeling as Batman peered over the edge of the abyss, and realized what needed to be done, that it was entirely genuine. No histrionics, no loud emotional scenes, Batman was buried beneath the weight of his cowl, so to speak, and Bale embodied it perfectly, or so I thought.

On top of all that, everything else was spectacular. The music score was stirring and well orchestrated, the fight scenes (unlike last time) were interesting and could be followed, with choreography that felt genuine. Joker and everyone else looked spectacular from start to finish. Freeman and Caine, in their more minor roles, were as stellar as ever, I thought, and a joy to watch. Everything about this movie was just as I would have it be.

And that is that.

I didn't for a moment believe that Jim Gordon was actually dead. I didn't expect him to reveal himself by saving Batman, which was a really good touch. Oldman vanishes completely into the role and never once am I aware of Jim Gordon as a character played by an actor. It's a low key, perfect performance.

The casting and performance for the minor roles was excellent as well from Michael Jai White to William Fichtner to Eric Roberts to guys whose names I don't know off the top of my head. The cast has depth all the way to the bottom of a deep ocean trench and it shows.

I saw the movie friday. I left wide eyed and mind reeling. I thought it was fantastic. What can I say that hasn't been already by everyone else? It was all around stunning. I do have two criticisms: I would have loved to see Two Face last long enough for his own movie with the Batman. I think he was too short lived. And was it me or did they call Gordon's wife Barbra? I thought his daughter was named Barbra as in the future Batgirl/Oracle? Anyway that was it. I loved Ledgers Joker mainly because they took him back to the sadistic fucked up thing he is, Ledger took the Joker and touched on something that in my opinion Nicholson was never quite able to grasp. He wasn't the almost clown like villain, he was a demented crazy man hell bent on destruction of the most moral of people. "The Dark Knight Returns" anyone? Heath's portrayal blew me away, and I can't only hope that whomever takes his place does him justice.

And was it me or did they call Gordon's wife Barbra?

They did.

I thought his daughter was named Barbra as in the future Batgirl/Oracle?

She is. People get named after their parents all the time. Henry Jones Jr remember?

I dragged Devonie to go see it last night. When it got to the pencil trick, she jumped out of her seat, and then started laughing. I think she's in love with the Joker now.

But, she also pointed out something that I'd not picked up on (shes' the costuming geek, anyway): The Joker's clothing. The green vest he's wearing is card-table velvet, as is the purple sports coat. The hexagonal designs on his shirt are common designs for the back of poker cards. Once she pointed that out, my jaw hit the floor. "Custom tailored" clothing, indeed!

Also, going back the second time, I could see more of what Joker was doing during the first robbery. The main action is on his dupes, but you can follow his actions. Devonie was highly impressed by that as well.

While I did enjoy the movie, I am hesitant to label it BEST MOVIE EVAR OMG OMGOMG like so many (not accusing anyone here) are doing.

First and foremost, it suffers BADLY from hubris. It's long. Excessively long. Two hours and forty five fucking minutes long, with several "endings" a la "Return Of the King". I'm not an impatient person, but after about 2 hours I was ready for it to wrap up.

Secondly, it's preachy. And monologue heavy, and whenever it's done in that horribly raspy Batman voice it's quite grating. Any monologues should have been given by Freeman or Caine, as they have ear-pleasing voices. Batman-voice looses intimidation upon repetition.

And what was the deal about Dent not being allowed, for lack of a better description, human? So what if he gets half his face burned/melted off and his girlfriend killed, if he suddenly goes a little crazy does that mean all of his convictions are overturned? Since when did THAT become a law? The Joker was awesome, and that part of the movie was quite good. It was when they tried to introduce and complete the Two Face line that it kinda lost it for me.

They established pretty early on the quirks and flaws in Harvey Dent's personality that led to the creation of Two-Face. The keys were subtle, but they were there. The fact is that he lost the woman he loved, became horribly disfigured, and was watching all the good he was doing crumbling into dust. His overriding conviction at that point became to purge the city of the scum that allowed this evil to happen. This happened to lead back to Gordon, because the corrupt cops came from the unit that Gordon vouched for. Ultimately, Gordon was responsible for the entire hostage situation, even though he had no hand in it.

If anything, I'd say this Two-Face is more human and sympathetic than any Two-Face presented before, even in the Animated Series. There he was an upright man with a dark side, his second personality, which came to the fore after a bad run-in with the mob. Here, he was a good man with some hidden flaws that he took pains to try and overcome, and was largely successful until the Joker systematically broke him down. The Joker took away everything that Harvey had, his work, his love, his appearance, he beat him down psychologically until there was virtually nothing left. Then, when he was at his lowest point, the Joker comes along and gives him a purpose anew, the freedom and ability to enact revenge on those that were ultimately responsible for doing him wrong, the criminals and corrupt police who created the situation he was in.

As for evidence of Harvey's darker side appearing throughout the movie, here's a list:

1. He clears Gordon to let Batman extract a foreign nation from another country. This is in clear violation of the law, especially given that he has no jurisdiction to arrest someone in China, much less that authority to send a vigilante to kidnap someone.

2. That he works with Batman at all is a bit of a dark side. Even if all he's doing is letting Batman do the dirty work that he can't do, he is allowing a vigilante to beat the shit out of people in the interests of Justice. Batman breaks bones during interrogations, and the Supreme Court outlawed shit like that 1932.

3. Harvey himself falls back on violence during the movie, until Batman stops him, reminding him as his duty as the Shining Knight figurehead of Gotham.

4. Harvey relied on trickery and guile to achieve a great many things. Sure, several were benign, but the fact of the matter was that he had a double headed coin that he used to trick people into agreeing to what they thought was a game of chance, but only had one outcome.

I think that Harvey Dent was masterfully done in this film, especially as a counterpart to Bruce Wayne. Both men suffered dearly from the corruption of Gotham City, and both men's lives changed forever because of the intervantion of madmen. While Bruce was more of a blunt instrument that was refined by control-hungry psychopath who was willing to burn a city to the ground to destroy the corruption, Harvey Dent was publically a paragon of law and order that was torn down by a lunatic who wanted to expose just what evils men could do when backed into a corner and beaten.

Before seeing the movie, I didn't understand Loki in Norse mythology, how a prankster god could be scary and evil.

Now I do.