White House will not veto Defense Act

[rhoenix]

The White House on Wednesday said it would not veto the controversial National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA).

President Barack Obama’s spokesman Jay Carney said lawmakers who crafted a compromise version from rival Senate and House versions of the legislation had addressed his worries about proposed tough rules on detainees.

The legislation has been the subject of considerable criticism.

At one point the bill contained a provision that would have authorized the U.S. to use military force anywhere there were terrorism suspects, including within the U.S. itself. The American Civil Liberties Union described it as authorizing a “worldwide war without end.”

The section was removed from the bill in July.

But other controversial provisions, Sections 1031 and 1032, remained. The provisions authorize the U.S. to indefinitely detain suspected terrorists anywhere in the world without charge or trial, and required them to be held them in military custody. Civil liberties advocates and others were furious at lawmakers for the broad scope of the provisions, which could have allowed U.S. citizens on U.S. soil to be indefinitely detained without trial.

Democratic senators tried amend the provisions, but failed. Sen. Rand Paul (R-KY) warned the provisions “put every American at risk” of being sent to Guantanamo Bay. Sen. Mark Kirk (R-IL) said it violated the Constitution because U.S. citizens could be apprehended on U.S. soil and held without a trial.

Obama threatened to veto the entire bill because of the provisions, which he said were “inconsistent with the fundamental American principle that our military does not patrol our streets.”

The latest version of the bill, drafted by the House-Senate conference committee, kept both provisions. But it exempted U.S. citizens from the requirement for terror suspects to be held in military custody and included language stating that the bill did not extend new authority to detainee U.S. citizens.

The bill forces federal agencies to treat non-citizen terrorism suspects as enemies waging war against the U.S. rather than criminals. FBI Director Robert Mueller said the provisions would disrupt, rather than strengthen, efforts to fight terrorism in the U.S.

“The statute lacks clarity with regard to what happens at the time of arrest,” he explained to the Senate Judiciary Committee. “It lacks clarity with regard to what happens if we had a case in Lackawanna, New York, and an arrest has to be made there and there’s no military within several hundred miles.”

“What happens if we have … a case that we’re investigating on three individuals, two of whom are American citizens and would not go to military custody and the third is not an American citizen and could go to military custody?”

The House approved the final version bill by a 283 to 136 vote Wednesday afternoon. The Senate still must approve it before it heads to the president’s desk.

“As a result of these changes, we have concluded that the language does not challenge or constrain the President’s ability to collect intelligence, incapacitate dangerous terrorists, and protect the American people, and the President’s senior advisors will not recommend a veto,” Carney said.

“However, if in the process of implementing this law we determine that it will negatively impact our counterterrorism professionals and undercut our commitment to the rule of law, we expect that the authors of these provisions will work quickly and tirelessly to correct these problems,” he added.

The House of Representatives was expected to approve the $662 billion Defense Authorization bill, which also sets high hurdles for closing the prison at Guantanamo Bay, and the Democratic-held Senate was to quickly follow suit.

The White House, which had threatened a veto of the original House and Senate versions of the legislation, said it “remained concerned about the uncertainty that this law will create for our counterterrorism professionals.”

Well, at least the part about witchhunts being able to detain or arrest any US citizen without trial is gone, but the other provisions don't sit well with me.

[SirNitram]

The Constitution limps on for another day.

[frigidmagi]

Time to write Senators.

[Comrade Tortoise]

No. It does no such thing. The constitution is dead:

Obama threatened to veto the entire bill because of the provisions, which he said were “inconsistent with the fundamental American principle that our military does not patrol our streets.”

The latest version of the bill, drafted by the House-Senate conference committee, kept both provisions. But it exempted U.S. citizens from the requirement for terror suspects to be held in military custody and included language stating that the bill did not extend new authority to detainee U.S. citizens.

The executive branch already claims the authority to detain US citizens without trial. This bill just codifies it. Basically, the conference committee version says

"It is now legal to detain US citizens caught on US soil without trial, but we are not changing the existing laws regarding the detainment of US citizens"

It simply does not MANDATE that terrorism suspects be treated as such. It codifies the discretion of the executive branch in making that determination, and leaves it, of course, in the discretion of the executive to determine what a terrorism suspect is. No. There could NEVER be abuses of that. Never!

Fuck Obama, Fuck Congress. Liberty is Dead.

[SirNitram]

Where's that quote from?

[Comrade Tortoise]

Where's that quote from?

The article in the OP.

Unless you mean the one in little "quotation marks", that is a paraphrase.

[frigidmagi]

At one point the bill contained a provision that would have authorized the U.S. to use military force anywhere there were terrorism suspects, including within the U.S. itself. The American Civil Liberties Union described it as authorizing a “worldwide war without end.”

The section was removed from the bill in July.

But it exempted U.S. citizens from the requirement for terror suspects to be held in military custody and included language stating that the bill did not extend new authority to detainee U.S. citizens.

The bill is still unacceptable, but let's focus on things that are still in it, as opposed to things that have been removed. Again, write your Senators tell them the correct answer is no.

[Soontir948]

So, the bill is now going back to the Senate again before being handed to the President?

[frigidmagi]

Yes, they have to vote up the new version. Which is why I'm telling people to write their Senators. I wrote the President because writing my Senator would be useless.

My Senator is John McCain, one of the assholes (along with Levin) who wrote the bill.

[Dark Silver]

I already wrote both my senator, legislator, and the President himself concerning this bill.

I expect little heed will be taken to my mail, but hopefully it'll be among the bulk that is to sweep those offices.

[Soontir948]

The Senate has passed the conference report; 86-13

[frigidmagi]

They deadlock on a payroll tax but they can slam this through in under a fucking week!?! It's like the only thing they can agree on is "Hey, let's fuck over everyone else! YAY!"

Christ have mercy and may the voters have none!

[Derek Thunder]

For some reason there is an eerie sort of consensus between the two major parties when it comes to issues like these. The boundless expansion of the "war on terror" in terms both spatial and temporal has become bipartisan in nature, and that scares me.

[Charon]

*sees that both of his senators voted yes on this, and notes that Schumer has played a part in this whole censor the internet thing*

Guess who's not getting my vote again. And yes, I will vote for the fuck crazy Republican if I have to. I can always vote him out next time.

[frigidmagi]

I hate to say it but we need to learn from the lesson of the Tea Party. They used a weapon to deadly effect, the primary system.

[General Havoc]

Fuck Obama, Fuck Congress. Liberty is Dead.

This, right here, this is the reason I stopped frequenting the N&P section of this board.

[Derek Thunder]

This, right here, this is the reason I stopped frequenting the N&P section of this board.

Are you referring to the complete failure of people-powered politics, subsumed utterly to a bipartisan national security state which can do nothing other than expand and consume at an ever faster rate? Discussion may be futile but it can still be entertaining from time to time - If nothing else, it might allow a better understanding of the shambling defense-intelligence-industrial colossus which will devour us all.

Or is this tut-tutting over tone?

[General Havoc]

This, right here, this is the reason I stopped frequenting the N&P section of this board.

Are you referring to the complete failure of people-powered politics, subsumed utterly to a bipartisan national security state which can do nothing other than expand and consume at an ever faster rate? Discussion may be futile but it can still be entertaining from time to time - If nothing else, it might allow a better understanding of the shambling defense-intelligence-industrial colossus which will devour us all.

Or is this tut-tutting over tone?

I'm referring to the fact that the forum largely became a venue for people to repeat endlessly sermons on things like the "complete failure of people-powered politics", in every circumstance, at every moment. A venue for people who won't be bothered to lift a finger in defense of the ideals they profess to hold, but instead nihilistically mock anyone who suggests such a thing due to the above sentiments. A venue for people who wish to neither debate things nor discuss them, but simply moralize on the end of the world.

A venue, in essence, for people who wish to do nothing but troll and whine.

[Derek Thunder]

m referring to the fact that the forum largely became a venue for people to repeat endlessly sermons on things like the "complete failure of people-powered politics", in every circumstance, at every moment. A venue for people who won't be bothered to lift a finger in defense of the ideals they profess to hold, but instead nihilistically mock anyone who suggests such a thing due to the above sentiments. A venue for people who wish to neither debate things nor discuss them, but simply moralize on the end of the world.

Well, there is discussion, but I don't think there's really a lot of debate to be had considering the demographics of the board. Generally, younger and better-educated people who are internet-savvy and secular tend to fall into just a few ideological camps. Thus, the trolling, though it's really a poor substitute for having a broader spectrum of views represented.

Then again, I could be wrong. What do you think of the NDAA?

[General Havoc]

Well, there is discussion, but I don't think there's really a lot of debate to be had considering the demographics of the board. Generally, younger and better-educated people who are internet-savvy and secular tend to fall into just a few ideological camps. Thus, the trolling, though it's really a poor substitute for having a broader spectrum of views represented.

Then again, I could be wrong. What do you think of the NDAA?

*Sigh* You're probably right, honestly, and I'm almost certainly being grossly unfair in characterizing it as whining and trolling. It's just frustration on my part.

I think the NDAA is an abomination, much as all the rest of you do. But I volunteer money and time at the ACLU weekly, and more money with other organizations, and so I've been working on or around the NDAA, SOPA, and other such bills a lot over the past bit. Fundraising, lobbying staffers, basic stuff like that, but something. So when I come home and read posts about how someone has suddenly discovered that NDAA exists and passed, and therefore it is the end of the world, liberty is dead, all that is good on earth has perished, and large segments of the population are contemptuous assholes for causing it to come into being, I tend to react with... well... frothing, incandescent rage. Real adult of me, I know.

For all I know, you all did similar things to combat this bill, and will continue to. But hyperbole like that just completely sets me off. When I said that it was the reason I no longer frequent this part of the forum, I was being absolutely literal. I have simply lost my capacity to deal rationally with this sort of thing.

Anyway, I shouldn't have even said anything. Sorry to throw a firecracker in. I'll leave you all to it.

[Charon]

I'm going to sort of agree with Havoc on this point, though I have not grown as frustrated as he has by such things.

NDAA is an abomination, as is SOPA and, to a lesser extent, Protect IP (which my own lovely Senior Senator is co-sponser). These are things which should die in a fire.

If they pass, is the end of liberty, justice, and the pursuit of happiness?

No.

Quite frankly this is not the first, second, or even third time such bullshit has been passed into law. Nor is this the first, second, or third time that corporate interests have held a majority stock of Congress. (Have you ever seen the Political cartoons back when Theodore Roosevelt was running? It's eerily similar, only we don't have a Teddy yet. )

It reminds me of when people were all doom and gloom and declaring the end of the nation back when our credit rating got dropped by one of the three companies that keep track of that, and they dropped it from Triple A to Double A+. There were people that were absolutely CERTAIN that the End Times were nigh.

We do not live in the end times, Liberty is not Dead, just bruised, battered, and bleeding. The question should not be "Liberty is dead, where should I go now?" It should be "Liberty has been kidnapped by the government, are you a bad enough dude to rescue it?"

What am I gonna do about this? Well there's a reason I bit the bullet and joined the Democratic Party several years ago. I'm voting against pretty much every incumbent I can in the primary. And I will do my damnedest to convince everyone else I can think of to do the same.

[Dark Silver]

You know...Charon and Havoc both have it correct.

I like to think we at LA are a bit less prone to jumping at shadows and screaming from the rooftops than some other places on the net....

But it's been creeping into the board and the N&P section a lot in the past six months to year. I'm not sure I rather like it. It's not that we need to be all "hum drum" about things, but not everything is the end of the world (I'll go to another board if I want to see that kind of semantic BS thrown about).

I'm not even exempt from this proclaiming on this bill being end of the world (I posted on FB concerning a few of the provisions of this bill a couple weeks back, that may have used the semantic scaremongering...), but the point is made - Liberty isn't dead and gone, we (US Citizenry) just have to be willing to take it back from those who are co-opting it for themselves.

Part of it is writing to your congress-critter and even the White House in non-crazy tones, concerning the provisions or certain bills (or the entirety of bills) that are up for debate/vote. Make your voice heard, and if your Elected Representative isn't doing his job, vote him out at the earliest opportunity.

I'm just hoping to the gods SOPA gets kicked out, that's a horrendous bill (and it seems like a good portion of congress is against it at the moment...so we'll see).

[Batman]

I unsurprisingly can't speak for anybody but myself, but for me, while it certainly isn't the end of the world, it does look like it's about to be the end of the US as should be. You know, the land of the free, the home of the proud and all that. Because so far, US citizenry seem to be perfectly happy to let their government get away with it. Yes, you can technically still turn it around, but you're not doing it. The US of A have been turned into the World's Richest Banana Republic ever since Dubya the Stupider took over and the public played along.

[rhoenix]

I unsurprisingly can't speak for anybody but myself, but for me, while it certainly isn't the end of the world, it does look like it's about to be the end of the US as should be. You know, the land of the free, the home of the proud and all that. Because so far, US citizenry seem to be perfectly happy to let their government get away with it. Yes, you can technically still turn it around, but you're not doing it. The US of A have been turned into the World's Richest Banana Republic ever since Dubya the Stupider took over and the public played along.

It didn't start with Shrub, but much was done to move things along under his presidency.

[Batman]

Then when did it start? Bush the Elder didn't do a half bad job (unlike his son he actually had a damn good reason to go to war with Iraq and did a much better job of it ) and Clinton's only fault was lying about getting a blowjob in the Oval Office. Apparently, getting thousands of people killed for no sane reason is less important to the US populace than their president cheating on his wife.