Mass Paris rally against gay marriage in France

[frigidmagi]

BBC

Hundreds of thousands of protesters have taken to the streets of Paris over plans to give gay couples in France the right to marry and adopt children.

Three big marches converged on the Champs de Mars, a large park next to the Eiffel Tower.

France's Socialist government is planning to change the law this year.

But the demonstrators, backed by the Catholic Church and the right-wing opposition, argue it would undermine an essential building block of society.

The organisers put the number of marchers at 800,000, with demonstrators pouring into Paris by train and bus, carrying placards that read, "We don't want your law, Francois" and "Don't touch my civil code".

Police said the figure was closer to 340,000 and one government minister said the turnout was lower than the organisers had predicted. A similar march in November attracted around 100,000 people.

The "Demo for all" event was being led by a charismatic comedian known as Frigide Barjot, who tweeted that the "crowd is immense" and told French TV that gay marriage "makes no sense" because a child should be born to a man and woman.

'Test for president'
Although France allows civil unions between same-sex couples, Francois Hollande made a pledge to extend their rights part of his presidential campaign.


Four topless feminist activists staged a protest in St Peter's Square in favour of gay rights
Centre-right UMP President Jean-Francois Cope said the rally would be a "test" for the president because there were "clearly millions of French people who are probably concerned by this reform".

The far-right National Front is also opposed to the change, although its leader Marine Le Pen stayed away from the march, arguing the issue was a diversion by politicians from France's real problems.

Despite the support of the Church and political right, the organisers are keen to stress their movement is non-political and non-religious, and in no way directed against homosexuals, BBC Paris correspondent Hugh Schofield reports.

An opinion poll of almost 1,000 people published by Le Nouvel Observateur newspaper at the weekend suggested that 56% supported gay marriage, while 50% disapproved of gay adoption.

The poll also said that 52% of those questioned disapproved of the Church's stand against the legislation.

Earlier polls had indicated stronger support for the legalisation of gay marriage.

As the marchers began arriving in the centre of Paris, four Ukrainian activists staged their own protest in St Peter's Square in the Vatican in support of gay rights.

The women from feminist group Femen appeared topless while Pope Benedict recited his traditional Angelus prayer.

Police moved to restrain the activists, one of whom was attacked by a worshipper brandishing an umbrella.

[LadyTevar]

*snort*
No no, we must keep it underwraps! We must keep the Tradition of illicit sex about it.

[Batman]

So how, exactly, is a movement that tries to deny homosexual couples the rights heterosexual couples enjoy NOT directed against homosexuals?

[Charon]

Through the power of self-denial Bats. "I can't be a bigot, I'm too good of a person, see I don't hate Gay people I just know that they shouldn't have everything that I have because they are different."

In other news, I'm just gonna file away those poll results for the next time someone tells me that America is filled with backwards crazy religious zealoted bigots. Because the numbers they have for France are comparable to those in America.

[Norseman]

This is so weird because French secularism is far more advanced than just about anywhere in Europe. If these guys are religious, then where are they coming from?

[Dark Silver]

Religious breeding camps?

[frigidmagi]

This is so weird because French secularism is far more advanced than just about anywhere in Europe. If these guys are religious, then where are they coming from?

Could it not be distinctly possible that just because secularism has been advanced and pushed, it doesn't follow that religious belief has been destroyed?

[rhoenix]

Could it not be distinctly possible that just because secularism has been advanced and pushed, it doesn't follow that religious belief has been destroyed?

To follow up on this point, I don't think the two should be conflated in the first place in terms of politics, since I think of such conflation as a dangerous shortcut for critical thinking.

Yes, various religions over the centuries have been used as instruments of oppression, but as Communism proved, you don't need to have a official religion to oppress your people. By the same token, American Catholic nuns are strongly campaigning for rather progressive things at the moment (contraception & women's rights), despite the less than secular viewpoint most of the Catholic leadership appears to hold about those issues.

(EDIT: made post more clear by changing opening lines - thanks Frigid)

[frigidmagi]

I am using the terms as they are used at me Rheonix and whenever I discuss this secular is used as the opposite of having any faith. I once mentioned praying only to have someone say to me "Oh I thought you were secular."

So yeah. There you go.

[rhoenix]

I am using the terms as they are used at me Rheonix and whenever I discuss this secular is used as the opposite of having any faith. I once mentioned praying only to have someone say to me "Oh I thought you were secular."

So yeah. There you go.

Ah - I wasn't trying to debate the point you raised in the least. I was trying to support your argument through an alternate view, but I don't think that part came through properly in my post. Sorry for being unclear.

[Batman]

It should also be noted that while religious bigotry is quite possibly the most widely spread and easily the most publicized kind, it's far from the only one. There's plenty of nonreligious people who still are racist, sexist, 'the poor are only poor because they're lazy' and so on.
Also, I seem to recall a noticeable anti-arab attitude in France having popped in the news over the past few years, so wether it's religious or just basic tribal 'different=bad' behaviour, it seems to be definitely there.

I think we can all agree that by and large Europe is pretty damn secular. Guess what-Italy is still heavily catholic, and while it probably does get more secular than Germany, nothing comes immediately to mind, and we still had demimandatory church in school once a week (demi as it wasn't actually, but nobody ever bothered to tell us, we had to figure that out on our own) and when I finally did find out and decided to sleep in instead they sent the pastor round talk me out of my wicked ways.
Same for religion class in high school. Turns out that once again, it wasn't mandatory, but somehow nobody could be arsed to tell us that.

Granted, that's anecdotal evidence from 25-30 years ago, but I think we can agree Germany was considered pretty damned secular even back then.

[Comrade Tortoise]

The thing with France is that, last I checked, it is still one of the most catholic by way of population countries in europe. The government is very secular, and has been since the Revolution, but the population is not. Even if they are not very practicing, and only go to church for christmas, easter, baptism, and funerals, the pope still has a lot of soft-authority.

Add onto this the french right wing. Right-wing groups, particularly european right-wing groups which tend to be, frankly, reactionary, and you can get considerable opposition to the rights of gay people. These same people may also be in favor of more populist social programs, but can be very stodgy on social issues.